From the Department of Missing the Point

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Mark of New Jersey

Mark is a Founding Editor of The League of Ordinary Gentlemen, the predecessor of Ordinary Times.

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23 Responses

  1. Avatar E.D. Kain
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    says:

    Yes, yes, yes. And why is this? I don’t get it. Why can’t conservatives be better cultural critics? And how on earth can you wage culture war without better street smarts?Report

    • Avatar Kyle in reply to E.D. Kain
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      says:

      I’m a fan the criticism hurled at shows that show how hard it is to be a teenage mother or that otherwise offensive behavior leads to undesirable consequences because some how they’re irresponsibly encouraging it…Report

    • Avatar greginak in reply to E.D. Kain
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      says:

      ED- Question: You use the phrase culture war. Why? Or more specifically are you buying into Pat Buchanan’s philosophies about said culture war?

      I have to say I hate the phrase and all that it implies. American’s overuse the war metaphors and it directly pits American against American. It implies loss and destruction for one side which leads to enraged bitter conflict instead of respect and belief that others can act in good faith. In a war there are few if any rules and destroying your opponent is the goal. In a war people demonize the Other. And describing the process of democracy as a war seems to miss the point of how and what democracy is.

      The belief and use of the term “culture war” is one of things that is holding back healthy dialogue in this country.Report

  2. Avatar Dave
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    says:

    I can see it now:

    “Nihilist Applauds Pissing on Christ”Report

  3. Avatar Jaybird
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    says:

    If only it had been a picture of Roman Polanski.Report

  4. Avatar greginak
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    says:

    Well I don’t know. It seems like this conservative criticism of not conservative CYE is completely conservative and supports conservative principles. Conservative cultural criticism is in line with conservative thought, conservative values and is just really , really conservative. conservatives should be conservative in the best conservative tradition of being conservative.

    So anyway , maybe the problem is conservatives having to wrap everything in “conservative” values and principles as if their political views have to be some complete guide for how to live every aspect of life. Some conservatives seem stuck on having their chosen political label be an entire life plan.

    Full disclosure

    I’m a liberal who enjoys John Wayne movies and the movie Dirty Harry, even though, shock of shocks, those movies don’t support my political beliefs.Report

    • Avatar ThatPirateGuy in reply to greginak
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      says:

      I’m a science enthusiast who enjoyed Mega-shark vs. Giant Octopus.Report

    • Avatar Mark Thompson in reply to greginak
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      says:

      True, but it wasn’t always like this. ee cummings would fit comfortably within conservatism under just about any modern definition, yet no one would deny that he understood art. Similarly, John Wayne and Dirty Harry were frickin’ decades ago. If I were not insistent on being more or less done with the topic for the moment, I could probably outline an argument as to why this particular problem of conservatism has its roots in the same issues of incoherence that I have diagnosed as being at the root of conservatism’s more political problem. In some ways, I’d even argue that solving this problem is part and parcel of solving those larger problems – current disagreements with Conor aside, I’d even go so far as to say that the Electric Kool-Aid Conservatism project, as outlined in that essay, is precisely the type of thing that conservative elites ought to be doing if they want to modernize conservatism.Report

      • Avatar Mark Thompson in reply to Mark Thompson
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        says:

        One other thing, if I may briefly run the risk of getting accused of concern trolling: liberals should beware the influence of Media Matters. It can serve a useful purpose to be sure (and I myself am not above citing it favorably on occasion), but its interest in dissecting the political leanings of all media pushes it down a path where it can and sometimes does wind up having a view of art that exactly corresponds to what I’m discussing here. At the moment, it’s not nearly as problematic for the Left as it is for the Right (and to be honest, given the nature of art, it probably never will be) but Media Matters definitely has a penchant for completely missing the point of what little conservative-leaning “art” there is.Report

  5. Avatar T. Sifert
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    says:

    “The problem is that this line of thinking completely, utterly, and preposterously misses the point of the show, not to mention the punchline: Larry David is an asshole.”

    I don’t see what this has to do with it. Your absolutely valid point about “conservative” culture criticism aside, the issue isn’t just the question, “how could anyone think urinating on a picture of Jesus Christ is amusing?” (which might fall under conservative misunderstanding of culture), but also, “why is it OK for someone to actually piss on a picture of Christ, whatever the context?” (i.e., does cultural understanding/laughing-at take the actual piss off the actual picture?).Report

  6. Avatar Delicate Genius
    Ignored
    says:

    Mark, before I say anything else let me just say this: if you think there’s a point to Curb Your Enthusiasm, you’re the one who is missing the point.

    You are definitely right about the politics of this, but you are quite wrong that Larry David (the character) is never a hero. In fact, he is routinely wronged by others, especially by the superficiality-obsessed society that surrounds him. Indeed, the audience is supposed to actively root for him in these situations. I think Wikipedia’s paragraph character description is very accurate:

    Self-centered, misanthropic and regularly difficult, Larry creates awkwardness and discomfort in social situations. His problems are often caused by his own neuroses and an obstinate faith in his own understanding of ethics and etiquette. At the same time, he usually has good intentions but often finds himself a victim of circumstance and social convention, not to mention most of the people around him are almost, if not more, as self-centered and stubborn as he is.Report

  7. Avatar Michael Drew
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    says:

    Fantastic post. Quietly righteous. Just two points, one, I actually think Douthat’s film writing is pretty good (much better than his political writing). Two — Larry bailing in that context might be said to demonstrate uncommon conviction to his political views! Likely you are right, though, about what he means it to say about the warping effect of politics on life. (But it’s also probably based on an exaggerated account of a real incident!)Report

  8. Avatar Herb
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    says:

    Wow…before I clicked over, I had to think of what might be so offensive to “conservatives” about this week’s Curb episode. Oh, the Jesus thing! But what’s “conservative” about this particular critique? Seems this isn’t a conservative complaint so much as it is a Christian complaint.

    You can see that most clearly in the link to the Corner, where the big complaint is “mocking Christ.” And you know, even allowing for religious sensitivity, it’s a HUGE stretch to say that accidentally (because that, too, was part of the joke in the show….the pissing on Jesus was an accident!) peeing on a picture of a very European-looking Jesus is, indeed, “mocking Christ.” Idolatry much?

    At any rate…they picked the wrong episode to cry about. What about the one where Larry interrupted the baptism of a Jewish-to-Jesus convert, thinking he was drowning? Or the one where he used his father-in-law’s Jesus Nail to hang up his Jewish Mezuzah? Or the one where he tried to hook up his blind friend with a burqa wearing Muslim?

    Weak…and not conservative.Report

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