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    • Avatarpillsy on Not OK With Losing OKAnd I think Pinky is kind of splitting some hairs that don't make a ton of sense to me. But that's what it is and we're at least approaching something like the common baseline I was talking about. But here's the thing: Milo in his Breitbart [article about the alt-right [1] makes a single, brief mention to weev/Auernheimer(who's a Nazi with a big fucking swastika tattooed on him) only quotes him saying this: Hacker and white nationalist Andrew Auernheimer, better known as weev, responded in typically jaw-dropping fashion to our enquiries: “The tireless attempts of you Jews to smear us decent Nazis is shameful.” But the BuzzFeed article says this: “Finally doing my big feature on the alt right,” Yiannopoulos wrote in a March 9, 2016, email to Andrew “Weev” Auernheimer, a hacker who is the system administrator of the neo-Nazi hub the Daily Stormer, and who would later ask his followers to disrupt the funeral of Charlottesville victim Heather Heyer. “Fancy braindumping some thoughts for me.” [...] The three responded at length: Weev about the Daily Stormer and a podcast called The Daily Shoah, Milo was at best obfuscating Weev's role, and at worst was lying about it outright. It's one thing to seek input from a guy like that; it's another to get input from him and then make it look like you didn't. That's not just being "too friendly" with white nationalists as far as I see it. There's more where that came from, but I'm stopping here for now. The amount of time I spent looking at…
    • AvatarRoad Scholar on Not OK With Losing OKThe entire premise of this piece seems flawed to me. As @Bill Stephenson notes above, the alleged white power sign is not the same as the OK sign. The WP sign is both backwards and either upside down or sideways compared to the OK sign. It's not just about the configuration of the fingers; the placement and orientation matter as well. Consider another common sign: flipping someone the bird. The middle finger is extended upwards with the back of the hand facing the "flippee". Change the direction or orientation of the sign -- point the middle finger down or turn the hand around so the palm faces forward -- and the sign means... nothing really, at least that I'm aware of. Or the Black Power fist of olde; raised, with the fingers forward. Any other orientation and it's just... a fist. So good news! You can still use the OK sign like in the photo George linked. Every example of the WP sign that I've seen had the hand low, across the chest or down by the belt, three fingers very deliberately splayed out to form a W, pointed either sideways or down, and the back of the hand displayed instead of the front. Pretty much the exact opposite of the photo George supplied. And I don't think it really matters at rhis point what the original intention behind it all was. Whether hoax, troll, or sincere signal, the person flashing it is part of that loathsome tribe.
    • AvatarPinky on Not OK With Losing OKPillsy - To use the old Kevin Bacon meme, Milo is clearly 1-3 degrees of Richard Spenser. There's a moment when you're kissing a goat, and everyone around you is chanting, "kiss that goat! kiss that goat!", and you've got to be *really* confident that everyone around you is just as clever and ironic as you are. Only trolls are that gullible.
    • AvatarDamon on Miscarriage of Justice? More Questions Re: The Epstein Plea DealYou're damn right he's got leverage on some important people. That's the game..POS like this guy don't survive with out that. And he's donated a lot of money to the Dems. And the DA was a Dem... little back scratching I think.
    • AvatarDamon on Ending The CycleThe GF always takes recyclables from my house after a visit. "Why don't you recycle?" she asks. Hey, if there was value, I'd be paid to do it and the law don't make me. So I'm not. If the stuff is valuable enough, I'll either do it and make money or someone else will....and that's not happening...so I ain't doing it. My time is more valuable.
    • AvatarJaybird on Ballots Behind BarsOkay. Well, if my arguments above are ungraspable for you, I doubt I'll be able to make them more so. (Out of curiosity, are you familiar with arguments that the rest of the world ought to be allowed to vote in Presidential elections due to the outsized influence of the US?)
    • AvatarChip Daniels on Miscarriage of Justice? More Questions Re: The Epstein Plea DealDitto. I am struggling to resist seeing this as a real life version of True Detective.
    • AvatarChip Daniels on Ballots Behind Bars@jaybird "voting, as we understand it, is a privilege" Wait, what? I can't grasp a moral principle that would produce such a conclusion.
    • Avatarveronica d on Miscarriage of Justice? More Questions Re: The Epstein Plea DealIn general, I advise people to be skeptical of conspiracy theories. However in this case, I suspect Epstein knows some pretty unsavory stuff about some fairly powerful people.
    • AvatarOscar Gordon on Not OK With Losing OKSure, I get that. I don't know that I'd agree with the SJ person as to the compelling nature of the evidence, but then I'd love a better set of tests for such things. Take your evidence for Milo that you are discussing with Pinky. I don't think it gets you all the way there (I think you are taking a leap at some point), but I agree it paints a picture of a person who, at the very least, is far too comfortable with avowed White Nationalists for my tastes. So in the end, either you have to help explain that leap you took, or you have to be satisfied with the fact that you have lowered my opinion of a person like Milo (and thus reduced his ability to influence me). And if you choose to explain further... well, that can be a tricky thing, depending on how good you are at explaining yourself*, and whatever my mood is to go another round on the topic. Push too hard, and while I probably won't think better of Milo, I'll probably start thinking less of you as well. Luckily, those of us here are usually up for another round or ten. *And let's be honest, most people, especially those who are convinced of the rightness of their opinions, are really bad at this.
    • Avatarpillsy on Not OK With Losing OK@Pinky That's helpful! And where I am is if that happened to me, I'd be like, "What the hell is happening? I'm getting out of here right now because clearly I've made a series of horrible choices. Time to rethink my plans for the evening, if not every choice I've ever made in my life." And he didn't even pause. Looks really bad to me. (And it's just one really bad story of many.)
    • Avatarpillsy on Not OK With Losing OKNo, I'm saying if someone ignores all the evidence that Milo is racist, I doubt anyone on the SJ Left is going to pay a shred of attention to their opinion on how to judge whether someone's racist, and I don't see why they should. Hence, common baseline. And maybe a better set of alternative tests. That would be nice too.
    • AvatarJaybird on Ballots Behind BarsIf the argument is "this policy will make things better", then I just want to know what happened when, sure, Vermont and Maine changed the policy. Did things get better? We've got examples from two states! It doesn't even have to be about priors anymore! We can look at how much things got better!
    • AvatarPinky on Not OK With Losing OKPillsy - Here's the conversation that took place in my head when I read that: "He's a white nationalist." "No, he was just singing 'America the Beautiful.'" "Yeah, while Richard Spenser was making a Nazi salute." "OK, well, if you were singing 'America the Beautiful' and Richard Spenser started making a Nazi salute, what would you do? Would you keep singing?" "Me? I wouldn't be at the bar with Richard Spenser." And that's about where I'm stuck. Being at a bar with Richard Spenser makes you guilty of something. Finding yourself in a situation where four people in the room make a Nazi salute while you're singing "America the Beautiful" shows that you've made a lot of really stupid decisions in the previous few hours (at a minimum). I'd find him guilty of being a Breitbart editor. I just don't see the evidence to prove anything more than that.
    • AvatarOscar Gordon on Not OK With Losing OKI never said A THING about anything driving white nationalism. Never. I dare you to find a quote of me saying that. As for the SJ left (I am intentionally keeping this narrow), they cry wolf all the damn time. Google is full of examples. Some are legit, but most are over-zealous attacks where the justification is over-stated, or non-existent, or only relevant to people with that specific viewpoint or bias. And the tactics employed often result in consequences that far exceed whatever 'crime' was committed. So yes, I 'hyperventilate' at the idea of mob justice in whatever form it takes. They want credibility, they can stop employing mob tactics.
    • Avatarpillsy on Ballots Behind BarsI'm not actually trying to argue that voting is a right that is being unjustly taken away from prisoners. I do believe that, but know it's a premise you reject and that's fine. My argument is the utilitarian one, and those are the priors I'm talking about. Creating a political constituency that is incredibly interested in the well-being of prisoners is likely to make the state more interested in the well-being of citizens. Do I have data? No, and I'm kinda tired so I'm not going to search for them at the moment. If you think the priors I'm appealing to are lousy, sure, that's fine.
    • AvatarMichael Cain on Ballots Behind BarsFelons can vote in Maine and Vermont while they are in prison.
    • AvatarMike Dwyer on Not OK With Losing OK@stillwater If we're talking about symbols, let's discuss two: - the swastika was used by cultures all over the world for millennia and it took a World War/holocaust for people to sour on it. - rhe Confederate flag has really just finally passed into no-go territory in the last couple of years and even still it isn't as universally hated as the swastika So we have two symbols that took a LOT of cultural weight to change perceptions on Meanwhile, according to the SWJ Left the OK symbol is now problematic and MAGA hats are 'the equivalent to a white hood'. Eirher the internet has really accelerated the process on symbols going bad or progressive hyperbole has really become the force they wanted it to be.
    • AvatarOscar Gordon on Not OK With Losing OKSo your point is that if a person ignores ALL the other evidence that someone like Milo or the NZ shooter is racist, somehow the flashing of an OK gesture is going to make the difference? Regardless, it's a shit metric. We might as well seize the cash of random motorists because the drug dog smelled something funny on the money. Oh, wait...
    • AvatarJaybird on Ballots Behind BarsI can see why someone might think that if we can't get rid of sexual assault in prisons, we might as well let them vote on whether recreational weed should be legalized, sure. I'm just unmoved as to how voting is a right that is being violated by sequestering them away from society. But if you want to make a Utilitarian Appeal, I'd love to hear it. What happened when other places did this policy that is imperative that we implement?
    • Avatarpillsy on Ballots Behind BarsIt's an appeal to what I think are reasonable priors, but not priors that would shed light on your moral character...?
    • Avatarpillsy on Not OK With Losing OK@Pinky:, This jumped out at me as something utterly damning. We have white nationalists (including Richard Spencer, who's one of their most prominent leaders) going to a party with him and giving him Nazi salutes while he sang. I just can't wrap my mind around the suggestion that this isn't incredibly strong evidence. It’s a relationship illustrated most starkly by a previously unreleased April 2016 video in which Yiannopoulos sings “America the Beautiful” in a Dallas karaoke bar as admirers, including the white nationalist Richard Spencer, raise their arms in Nazi salutes.
    • AvatarJaybird on Ballots Behind BarsAre there any states (or, heck, countries) where prisoners are given the vote? What changed between before and after with prison suffrage? If you can show me how stuff got better afterwards, I will open my mind as to whether those sequestered from society should still get a voice in how it is operated. If it's an appeal to what my priors ought to be, were I good, I'm afraid that I am unmoved. (But not unmovable... if you have data...)
    • AvatarStillwater on Not OK With Losing OKMike, Terms and symbols don't "mean something different", as you should know from your studies in anthropology. Symbols and terms mean something *in addition to* as a function of use. The word "blue" refers to a color as well as a mood, right?
    • AvatarPinky on Not OK With Losing OKPillsy - We agree on the evidence; we're disagreeing on the charge. I'd vote to convict on the charge of "Breitbart editor". That's a pretty serious charge. To convict on the charge of "white nationalist", though, you'd have to present me with some proof that he'd espoused white nationalism. And, again, being an online alt-right-sympathetic troll is not an honorable thing. But you argued that Milo ok'ed the ok sign, and Milo is a white nationalist, so the ok sign is white nationalist. I can't make that jump. I think the rightward side of this thread would probably agree with the argument that Milo ok'ed the ok sign, and Milo is an online alt-right-sympathetic troll, so the ok sign is online alt-right-sympathetic trollery.
    • Avatarpillsy on Ballots Behind BarsWhat about letting them vote on who appoints the people running the Department of Corrections?
    • AvatarMike Dwyer on Not OK With Losing OKI've already stated the rise in white nationalism is a problem we should be mindful of. No argument there. With regards to a long-used benign hand-gesture that the alt-right and SWJ agreed now means something different...? It seems like you are. Or you are in agreement with both.
    • AvatarStillwater on Not OK With Losing OKAlso, the NZ shooter flashed the OK symbol. The play was pretty obvious there.
    • AvatarJaybird on Ballots Behind BarsIf we can't get rid of prison rape by passing laws, I am pretty sure that we won't be able to get rid of it by letting them vote on the stormwater ballot tax initiative.
    • Avatarpillsy on Ballots Behind Bars@Jaybird: OK, but how do we actually stop their human rights from being violated? What other mechanisms do we have to protect them that you think won't fail? Like this seems to be one of those places where we might even need a compromise, you know?
    • AvatarStillwater on Not OK With Losing OKI think white nationalism is on the rise, Mike. I see what the GOP is doing at the state level, and with federal judges. I don't think I'm getting played at all.
    • AvatarMike Dwyer on Not OK With Losing OK@stillwater We could play political position bingo and probably land on the same square on over half of our answers. If you want to put me in the enemy camp primarily based on A3s, that's just a good argument for why a parliamentary system is better so everyone doesn't feel the need to be on teams quite so much. As for wanting to remake the Left, I think it's probably too late for that. I'd love to be proven wrong in this next election cycle but the eventual nominee will tell me everything I need to know. Looking forward to the rise of the Center and I look forward to moderate liberals joining me there.
    • AvatarJaybird on Ballots Behind BarsI agree that they have human rights that should not be violated. Given the host of variables involved with voting in the US, I admit to thinking that voting, as we understand it, is a privilege. One that shouldn't be extended to people that we, as a society, agree ought to be sequestered from society.
    • AvatarStillwater on Not OK With Losing OKOscar, Unlike you I don't view it as "giving them the symbol". I look at is as at t1 they tried to appropriate the symbol and and t2 we find out how that shakes out. I could really give a rats ass about the symbol. I'm more interested in the implications at a societal level of white supremacists having co-opted that symbol than anything about the symbol itself. (Nerds will exist til the end of time, and they'll "well actually" that symbols' origin story. Have faith bro. 🙂
    • AvatarMike Dwyer on Not OK With Losing OK@stillwater The OK symbol nonsense was claimed (and retracted) about Convington Catholic. The SJW Left has already misstepped once on this exact topic. How many more times do you all want to look silly before you admit you got played by the internet?
    • Avatarpillsy on Not OK With Losing OK@Pinky Yeah see this is exactly the problem here. If you don't agree that Milo is a white nationalist, despite the clearly documentation that he communicated with the most frank Nazis on the alt-right for a story while concealing their involvement and sanitizing the overall picture of their movement, I believe your standards of evidence are unreasonably high.
    • AvatarPinky on Not OK With Losing OKPillsy, I said "pretty sure" because even though I've never heard MIlo say anything racist, I knew there was this article out there. Now I've read the article, and I'm even more confident that he's not a white nationalist. Seriously, that was 9000 words and it never even accused Milo of being a white nationalist. Communicating with some, having some creepy passwords, and hanging around with some in a bar, yes, but at no point does it depict him espousing any white nationalist beliefs. I wouldn't - and haven't - had any dealings with the alt-right. I think they're mostly dumb, and the smarter ones are scary. I've never liked the edgy, almost-anti-Semitic sense of "humor". I don't think I'd like Milo as a person. But that's not the same thing as being a white nationalist. It's like Doctor Jay's comment below; you need to back up charges or it just looks like you're flailing.
    • AvatarJoeSal on Not OK With Losing OKhttps://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/25/US_Navy_100504-N-9818V-453_Master_Chief_Petty_Officer_of_the_Navy_%28MCPON%29_Rick_West_and_divers_from_Southwest_Regional_Maintenance_Center_conduct_pre-dive_checks%3B_hand_signal_%22OK%22.jpg/220px-thumbnail.jpg We used to do this in scuba all the time. Also there is a signalling in the sub-culture of tokers that used it.
    • Avatarpillsy on Ballots Behind BarsThat's true. Even members of the Peckerwood Neo-Nazi Gang, as repulsive as they are, retain rights that don't go away once they're behind bars. I look at the current system, and how well it does at respecting the rights of prisoners, even the ones the Neo-Nazis should have, and frankly it does an incredibly crap job. Even Nazis don't deserve rape, or torture, or medical care so bad parts of their bodies rot and fall off [1] but these are all abuses that are rife in prisons now. [1] I mean if they were outside they could get care on their own but not so much here.
    • AvatarJaybird on Ballots Behind BarsAnd if more of them who should be in prison are in prison than those who shouldn't be are there, you're talking about giving suffrage to people that we have, effectively, exiled from society. I'm still not going to be on board with that. If you point to the guy in prison for buying marijuana, I get hung up on "then get him out of there!" instead of "well, we should at least let him vote with the Peckerwood Neo-Nazi gang. Hey! Maybe his vote will cancel theirs out!"