How Bernie Sanders supporters shut down a Donald Trump rally in Chicago | MSNBC

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Will Truman

Will Truman is the Editor-in-Chief of Ordinary Times. He is also on Twitter.

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  1. Avatar Christopher Carr
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    says:

    “Radicals”, “lefty”.

    It’s almost like the media is playing favorites.Report

  2. Avatar Chip Daniels
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    says:

    Zombie Saul Alinsky rises from the grave and leads a horde of leftist Uruk-hai to descend upon the defenders of Real America.Report

  3. Avatar Don
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    says:

    Trump could have scheduled his rally anywhere in Illinois. But he chose a liberal campus in the middle of a liberal city. And predictably, out came the naive left wing protesters. Today, videos of the riot are being viewed all over America. The fist fight where the protester’s foul lips were so easy to read. The policemen with the blood running down his head. The Mexican Flag and Bernie Sanders signs. Bill Ayers. Ah, the visuals. And three days before primaries. Did you really think Trump was seeking votes from liberal college students? You kept him out, all right. Some naive protesters just got played like a fiddleReport

    • Avatar Jaybird in reply to Don
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      says:

      And they’re still being played yet. They’re bragging about how they shut him down.

      They’re running with the narrative that he chose for them.Report

    • Avatar Kazzy in reply to Don
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      says:

      I disagree. People inclined to think colored folk were nothing but trouble weren’t voting Dem either way.

      People debating supporting GOP but turned off by Trump wake up today more turned off.Report

    • Avatar PD Shaw in reply to Don
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      says:

      I think that assumes a lot more forethought than I saw in Trump’s planning and organization when they came to my city. That includes placing African-Americans on the stage behind Trump without asking whether they were Trump supporters — that resulted in the video of the lady reading a book behind Trump during the rally.Report

  4. Avatar veronica d
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    says:

    This is not a dignified way to do politics.Report

  5. Avatar Jaybird
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    says:

    I miss the days when I didn’t vote for people like Mitt Romney.

    This not voting for Donald Trump thing is a lot worse.Report

  6. Avatar Will Truman
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    says:

    Here’s ThinkProgress on it.

    I honestly have pretty conflicted feelings about it. I don’t like the whole “Going to a rally to disrupt it” thing, and given that they went to an Orrin Hatch thingie and disrupted him yesterday I don’t have a whole lot of faith that they would agree with me that “Trump really is different.”

    On the other hand, Trump really is different different.

    On the first hand, I think this helps Trump more than it hurts him. Not just in the primary, either. And if this continues there is a non-negligible chance somebody is going to get killed.Report

    • Avatar PD Shaw in reply to Will Truman
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      says:

      The piece alludes to two important points. A large part of the reason for these “First Amendment zones” that get mocked is that having a separate space for protests or counter-rallies is to avoid escalation situations. This group claims to have taken the safety issue seriously in their preparations, but waiving NAZI symbols and tearing up signs is not cognizant of human reactions.

      The other point is this group lacks a basic understanding of First Amendment. The college has an open policy for political candidates to rent their space, but they seem to think that Trump is not the right kind of politician. They think the University has not acted legitimately, which legitimizes their own conduct. As long as people think like that, escalating violence is inevitable.Report

    • Avatar veronica d in reply to Will Truman
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      says:

      @will-truman — I agree. As I said above, this is undignified. But Trump has so completely removed any sketch of dignity from politics, so far beyond what even my punk rock tranny ass considers dignified — and my favorite word is “fuck” — but still! Trump! Seriously! Watching Richard Hell drunk-as-fuck, naked and puking in a NYC gutter would be more dignified than Trump.

      This guy has managed to make me sympathetic to a Brietbart reporter. That takes something special.

      I cannot even be mad anymore. It’s like, if the world is ending, but I get to watch the astroid hit, I’m gonna watch the fucking astroid hit. Give me Moar Trump Drama!Report

    • Avatar LeeEsq in reply to Will Truman
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      says:

      We had a big debate on this issue at LGM. Most of the posters were for the protestors but a few including myself were tentatively against it because freedom of speech applies to everybody not just people we like. The heckler’s veto always bothered me because it seems like disrespecting people’s speech.

      Pragmatically, I agree with you that these protests might end up helping Trump more than hurting Trump. His message is that real Americans are under siege and he is the only candidate willing to tell the truth about these things. Many of his supporters feel similarl. Protests like this reinforce his message.

      Yet, Trump’s message is actively threatening to many Americans and they are acting accordingly.Report

      • Avatar PD Shaw in reply to LeeEsq
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        says:

        I think some of them engaged in disturbing the peace, which is a crime. I think in the context of criminal activity, it has to be judged on the greater good trumping the law, and I’ve not read anyone suggest that the ultimate effect will not be to help Trump.Report

        • Avatar Will Truman in reply to PD Shaw
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          says:

          I’m beginning to wonder if this doesn’t actually hurt Trump. I doubt it will cost him many primary votes (sigh) and could gain him a few (sigh, sigh), but I think it may have made it considerably less likely that the PTB fall into line the way that many are predicting. It seems the risk of throwing support behind him are becoming more clear. Josh Barro, who has said for a while that “Of course the party will get in line behind him!” is now saying that he thinks he was wrong.

          So that’s something!Report

    • Avatar Brandon Berg in reply to Will Truman
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      says:

      Trump is different. The protestors’ behavior isn’t. There’s no reason we can’t condemn everyone involved here.Report

  7. Avatar Chip Daniels
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    The whole appeal of Trump is that he is a swaggering authoritarian, who is callously indifferent to other people and classes and nations.

    He doesn’t have to press 1 for English, he doesn’t have to watch his language, he will force Mexico to pay for the wall, he will kill or torture women and children whenever he deems it necessary.

    His appeal is based on brute force, absolute victory or defeat, not negotiation or compromise.

    So its a bit much to see him flinch and say “Hey, guys no fair!”Report

    • Avatar Will Truman in reply to Chip Daniels
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      says:

      On a visceral level, I agree (at least on your last thought, though more than that). On an intellectual one, I don’t like where that takes us.

      That’s the main source of my internal conflict.Report

      • Avatar Chip Daniels in reply to Will Truman
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        says:

        Agreed. That’s why on the jury nullification thread I noted that while I take a bit of grim satisfaction from what the protestors did, I can also imagine a mob of Trump supporters doing something worse.

        Or for that matter, a mob of any sort suddenly wheeling to inflict an injustice upon someone else, like Reginald Denny in 1992.Report

  8. Avatar Mike Schilling
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    says:

    This must be really tough on the right-wing press. On the one hand, red meet like young people, non-white people, and bad language not coming from Dick Cheney. On the other hand, being on Trump’s side.Report

  9. Avatar notme
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    How ironic that Hill and Bern are blaming Trump for the disruptions.Report

  10. Avatar Saul Degraw
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    I am with you when you say that this probably hurts Trump. At least among his supporters. I still think (and polls seem to indicate) that a majority of Americans see Trump as a disgrace.

    The issue is as Ezra Klein points out that many Trump supporters are drawn to him because of a tendency towards authoritarianism. Trump also strokes violence at people who have protested more peacefully at his rallies before. He is cruel and vulgar and encourages his supporters to mock and hate all who are different than them in some way. Jews, the physically disabled, gays, African-Americans, LGBT people, etc.

    The image of the woman giving the Nazi salute was revealing and also rather pathetic.

    But people are seeing Trump as being a real threat to American democracy. They are right to do so. The man is a fascist and our troll is just sneering in line to get at those liberals.Report

    • Avatar notme in reply to Saul Degraw
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      But people are seeing Trump as being a real threat to American democracy.

      Which folks? The ones that voted for him in the primaries or the Bernie/Soros/Move On types? The left calling Trump a fascist make me laugh. The left said the same things about Reagan.Report

      • Avatar CK MacLeod in reply to notme
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        notme: The left calling Trump a fascist make me laugh.

        A number of very well-credentialed conservatives have begun applying the f-word to Trump and his movement. I’ve been unwilling to call Trumpism more than crypto-fascist, but there are fewer and fewer boxes on the list still to be checked.

        One of the remaining limitations is that, while the fascists were ideologically “anti-intellectual,” they were not non-intellectual. Their leaders and were busy writing books and manifestos to the greater glory of their “ism.” Trump is many ugly things, but he’s not a very developed ideologue. In a way, that might even make him more authentically fascist than the fascists, who merely talked about power for the sake of power and about the rejection of intellectualism. Trump’s ideas hardly qualify as ideas at all. The fascist ideologues could only dream of being as unreflective as he is.Report

        • Avatar notme in reply to CK MacLeod
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          Are these the same well credentialed conservatives that have been looking for any mud to throw at Trump this election season and now finally hit on the fascist label?

          Maybe you should draft a post, Trump: fascist or not?

          That being said, the left calling Trump a fascist still makes me laugh.Report

          • Avatar El Muneco in reply to notme
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            I chose my screen name for a number of reasons. Primary among them was that Marcelo Gallardo was amazingly brilliant. But secondary was the notion of being a “puppet”. And if you define yourself by slavish opposition to a particular position, you’re exactly the same as those who define themselves by slavish devotion to a particular position. You’re a puppet. As one of the greatest filmmakers of the 20th century put it in his epic ripoff of one of the greatest playwrights of the 16th century – “A gourd in the wind”.

            You’re smarter than that. Move beyond the reflexive revulsion and consider the bigger picture.Report

          • Avatar Snarky McSnarksnark in reply to notme
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            Rather similar to the right calling Obama a socialist, eh?Report

        • Avatar veronica d in reply to CK MacLeod
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          says:

          The thing is, the United States is unlikely to ever reproduce the precise structure of European fascism, since it is not the 1930’s and this is not Europe. In fact, I’m not sure if contemporary Europe could reproduce the precise structure of fascism again. So does that mean the word is retired, except as a historical expression, like “feudalism”?

          I don’t know. Language lives and breathes, and having a word for this sort of thing seems useful, even if there are obvious differences between now and the world of Franco/Mussolini/Hitler.

          In a similar sense, “decimate” is a lovely word, but since modern militaries are unlikely to use “kill one out of ten soldiers as a punishment for failure in battle” as a policy, do we upgrade the word to a modern sense, or is it only used for olden times. (No one expects to spend their salary strictly on salt.)

          Anyway, given the concerns of the contemporary world, what is a useful sense for “fascism”?

          Trump might be it. Taking into account the eagerness of we on the left to apply that word to every petty annoyance, in fact Trump and his campaign might be the time the word is entirely legitimate. We might have now reached that place, that puts to shame every time I used “fascist” in an ironic sense against that annoying mall security guard who made me wait outside.

          Fucking fascists.

          This is hilarious, to tell the truth. I hope I don’t get dragged off to some camp where I get exterminated for being transgender. That would suck.Report

        • Avatar Zac in reply to CK MacLeod
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          says:

          CK MacLeod: Trump is many ugly things, but he’s not a very developed ideologue. In a way, that might even make him more authentically fascist than the fascists, who merely talked about power for the sake of power and about the rejection of intellectualism. Trump’s ideas hardly qualify as ideas at all. The fascist ideologues could only dream of being as unreflective as he is.

          Space awesome. This may be my favorite thing you’ve said in a while.Report

        • Avatar Roland Dodds in reply to CK MacLeod
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          says:

          @ck-macleod I have a post waiting to be published now about Mussolini’s The Doctrine of Fascism which references some of the early porto-fascistist thinkers. Seemed timely to talk about it.Report

    • Avatar PD Shaw in reply to Saul Degraw
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      says:

      Trump is not a fascist, that’s a political ideology that has no meaning in the American context. If people want a meaningful analogy to hang their hat on, it would be based upon this excellent piece: Trump is Not the New Hitler — He is the New Andrew Jackson.Report

      • Avatar veronica d in reply to PD Shaw
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        says:

        The problem is, few people these days really know much about Andrew Jackson, nor why we should care that Trump is like him. Now, learning history is a good thing, on its own merits, but these days I got bigger fish to fry than giving history lessons to people who aren’t going to listen to a history lesson. (Plus I don’t know shit about history myself, except that Jackson was a pretty ugly character.)

        I don’t really give a shit about the economic models in Fascism. I mean, I guess they are interesting, and if you are a poli-sci nerd, or an economics nerd, or a policy nerd, and so on — then yeah obviously, this will matter to you. But I want to talk about the ugliness of Trump. I want to talk about what motivates this eruption of angry white folks eager to throw punches, and not just inside some seedy rocker bar in a rustbelt town.

        I know these guys. I know why Trump appeals to them.

        Okay, so I’m a washed-up old punker, and I grew up slinging the word “fascist” every which way. I’m not joking when I say I’d call an annoying mall security guard a “fucking fascist.”

        It was just dumb fashion. We all talked that way, cuz we wanted to sound like the snide UK punks we looked up to. Whatever. You can take all of that as seriously as you want to. I don’t take it seriously anymore.

        I’m saying right now, Trump is different. I’m using the word seriously now.

        No, Trump is not exactly like Franco. Obviously. We all acknowledge that up front. But Trump is ugly in ways very similar to how the fascists were ugly. He’s tapping into a very similar kind of frustration, playing with similar social forces. We should notice the analogies with fascism. They should scare us.Report

        • Avatar notme in reply to veronica d
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          says:

          The problem is, few people these days really know much about Andrew Jackson, nor why we should care that Trump is like him.

          So since it is too much trouble to make an accurate comparison we should stick with calling him a fascist even if it isn’t really accurate?Report

  11. Avatar aaron david
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    says:

    I am thinking this may work for the D’s as much as ’68 in Chicago did.Report

  12. Avatar Kazzy
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    says:

    I’ve skimmed the comments here so apologies if this has been addressed…

    Is it possible that A) the protestors were wrong to disrupt a rally as they did and B) the response to the protestors was wrong-er because using force or threat of force to quell speech is worse than using speech to quell speech?Report

    • Avatar Will Truman in reply to Kazzy
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      says:

      In the case of Chicago, each side is claiming the other side indicated the violence. If Jeff Behar is to be believed – and I see no reason not to – the protesters were doing more than just speaking at people they perceived to be Trump supporters. However, earlier history suggests that Trumpers have no problem being the instigators (and that’s the direction I lean).

      (If you go to Hit Coffee right now you can see Behar’s tweets about it.)Report

      • Avatar Kazzy in reply to Will Truman
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        says:

        And it would seem possible that both are correct. Maybe on thissize of the arena a protestor shoved someone who shouted back at him for tearing a sign and on that side of the arena a Trump support tackled someone yelling, “Bernie! Bernie!”Report

        • Avatar PD Shaw in reply to Kazzy
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          says:

          This is not the first incident of political violence in Chicago this electoral season. For example, this is a picture of a candidate after being hit on the head by a beer bottle and shot with a staple gun by the opposing campaign. Same basic dynamic, someone had entered another campaign’s space (albeit public), a discussion led to fighting words and violence. Deciding who started it is somewhat beside the point, its simply a matter of a series escalating events that started with the intention to disrupt someone else’s entertainment.Report

        • Avatar Morat20 in reply to Kazzy
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          says:

          Primary season is getting uglier and uglier.

          And hey, for once I’ll indulge in BSDI here — if in different ways. A tip-toe through the Daily Kos diaries and comments will see some remarkable ugliness, anger, and vindictiveness — all directed internally.Report

  13. Avatar Slade the Leveller
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    says:

    From the Facebook page of a former co-worker of mine who was one of the protesters: “Sorry for blowing all of you up, but please the next time you watch the media, take everything with a grain (or cup) of salt. Protestor violence was NOT the reason he canceled. No one was violent until he cancelled and Trump supports (sic) got mad.”

    She is a successful, young small business owner, just to disabuse anyone of the notion that she is one of the great unwashed.Report

  14. Avatar veronica d
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    says:

    So here is Maddow weighing in, with a lovely video montage of Trump being terrible: http://winningdemocrats.com/rachel-maddow-tears-down-trumps-deliberate-race-war-in-a-brilliant-clip-youll-never-forget-video/

    The thing is, I think she is wrong when she calls it “deliberate” on Trump’s part. Now, I agree that he has fostered this environment, and this chaos is an outgrowth of his own irresponsibility. But still, a word like “deliberate” implies could have seen it coming. It is in the same cluster of ideas as “deliberation.”

    I don’t think that is quite the case. I don’t think Trump really plans things so much as he simply acts out. This is not a man behaving according to deliberation. Instead, he is a man who runs his mouth, come what may. It is no surprise people are throwing punches. Every barroom brawl in the history of barroom brawls had at least one puffed-up blowhard with poor impulse control. Trump finds a way to gather all such people into a single room. He is their avatar.

    Maddow is right about the skinhead rally thing. I’ve never been to a skinhead rally, but I went to plenty of hardcore shows in Miami Beach in the mid-80’s. I’ve been around skinheads aplenty. The people in Trump’s crowds, so far as I can see they mostly have full heads-of-hair, but the looks in their faces, those are familiar to me.

    This is deeply ugly. Leaders lead, and Trump brings out the worst in us.

    I think I shall watch a Jimmy Stewart movie today. I need to be reminded of what good looks like.Report

  15. Avatar notme
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    says:

    Looks like MoveOn will disrupt more rallies. I wonder if the left will blame Trump for any violence?

    http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/mar/13/moveonorg-raising-funds-from-trump-protests-warns-/Report

  16. Avatar notme
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    says:

    The protestor that rushed Trump on the podium wants you to know that “Trump is a bully.”

    http://www.cnn.com/2016/03/13/politics/thomas-dimassimo-donald-trump-protester-interview/index.htmlReport

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